Ep. 33: No Car-Salesman Energy: How We Talk Money Without Losing the Human

Part 10:00

This is Beyond the Arches, where full-arch dentistry meets real talk. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Beyond the Arches. I'm Dr. Daniel Noorthoek. With us today we have Lilia Blickle. Hello, Lilia. Hello. Welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you. It's been a little while since we've had you. Yeah, a few months. Maybe, yeah. Honored to be here. Today we are going to talk about how patients are real people and not numbers, but that involves talking about the finances and how we handle discussing things of somewhat of a touchy nature, I guess, to patients. You know, not only are we talking to them about their bad tooth scenario, but also the touchiest part of all, which is the money, and kind of our philosophy towards that. So ▶I think that the best way to do that is to talk about how patients are real people and not numbers.

The best way that people will relate to it is we'll talk about essentially like two different car buying experiences and the difference with them. And I guess with a couple car instances that I've had, you know, you can smell the desperation. And everyone that is listening knows, you know, what we're talking about when we talk about desperation. It can be anything. It can be a computer, a car. But I can remember when we bought our first, when my wife and I bought our first car, really together, we went in and, you know, it was just from the minute one, it was all these, you know, pointing out these little like features and don't you want that? And they think they're being sly, but you can feel that push the whole time. And that push, the pushy car sale, the pushy car sale, the pushy car sale, the pushy car sale, the pushy car sale, the pushy car salesman, it really more or less, you know, pushes you away. And the people that they get are the ones that they kind of guilt into it. And when you, and to contrast that more like the way that we sell, which I'll turn it over to you in a second with yours, but you know, specifically with this particular car, we did end up buying it because they did end up being so pushy with it that I was able to kind of use that.

Kind of push it against them and got the, essentially the price that I wanted. Um, but I, I'll never forget. They were calling me. I think we went in at maybe like 11 and I think by the time we left was probably like six 30. It was classic, horrible car buying experience all day long manager, this manager that hold on, what do you want to pay? Um, and actually Tim made me just think of another one. ▶We didn't end up leaving that one till like eight 30 recently. As you know, I traded in my truck for Tesla, which was very sad. I went in with a specific price, what I wanted to pay, what I wanted to get out of mine. And I, it was very fair, but it was on, on that. And I walked in and I said, this is how much I want to pay. This is how much I want to give. This is the difference.

This is the check I need. Can you do that or not? That is all. I'm a very direct car buyer. This is all I want. And they, this guy said, Oh yeah, we can, we can be straightforward and transparent and honest with you. So like, I'll get an answer to you within the next five minutes that led to getting the manager for approval, which led to, Oh, Hey, by the way, um, the key before we go clean it up, the, the, the Tesla up for you, um, would you like to go take a look at it? So you can sit in it, which they were really just like, Oh, I want to pay. I'm going to pay.

▶They were just trying to get me to sit in the car. So I fell in love with it and then would come back and be lenient on the price. Little did they know that I love the truck way more than the Tesla. But, um, long story short, the manager comes in and I'm just deadpan. This is it. This

Part 24:17

is all I'm doing. This is all I'm doing done. And, uh, he didn't know where to go with it. Cause it was just ruining his tactic. I wasn't playing the game of, I sat in the car and I love it to death. And I just, it's the car I've dreamed of. And so he goes, so, um, I noticed, uh, you have some, some golf, uh, attire on, you're like golf, what's your handicap. And he tried to like, I don't know, butter me up for golf. And I just sat there thinking like, buddy, the pressure that you're putting on me is not, not working. Yeah. Anyway. Um, so with our patients, we didn't, we didn't ever want them to feel that way.

▶And it's when you're, when you're first initially going into doing these cases in their high dollar items, when you're used to seeing, say something that costs a thousand dollars or something. Um, and then you jump to a case that needs something that's, we'll say $40,000 worth of work. You get that sort of high pressure car salesman vibe just naturally out of you. Cause you're excited and you really want to sell it. Um, and you've got a lot of loans to pay and a lot of bills and you're just starting and that you kind of have to squish that when you're first starting, uh, or if you're not used to seeing those cases because patients can figure it out very quickly. And that was, I remember that was a lot of the very beginning. I could feel that sort of coming out and I could feel myself turning patients away.

Uh, and so that's why we've, we've sort of changed our, our methods, methodology, if you will. So to contrast that, why don't you kind of give it like, say your, your car story and then lead that into kind of how we, we sell our patients. Yeah. So I just got a car, what, like two, three months ago, maybe, maybe even less. And I wasn't, I don't even think I was really looking for a car. I didn't want a car, a new car. My husband was adamant. Hey, get a bigger car before your car is worth nothing.

Let's try to get something. And you know, whatever. So I went in thinking like, I'm kind of, you know, I'm good cop and in all scenarios, but with my husband, I have to kind of try to play bad cop in these, in these, you know, environments. So I said, okay, I didn't tell him, but I was like, I'm going to go in there. I'm not going to act excited. We went and we, we sat in my car that ended up buying, but I, he was like, do you like it? Like, I kept saying like, I don't know, like it, you know, being very hard to read. I was not like me at all. And he kept saying, well, you don't look excited.

And I was like, I don't know. I'm kind of in like a shock sticker shock right now. And so I'm thinking, okay, car salesman, he's probably going to try to, you know, haggle me, do the car salesman thing. Um, and I think that kind of put like a fake, I had to be like, again, this front of like, I'm not that interested and I'm thinking like, okay, he's going to start haggling. Now we are sitting back at the desk. He's getting the manager. We're going to, but he did the opposite.

He was like, it's yours. If you want it, here's the price. And I was hoping a little bit, he would be a bad guy. So I could be like, okay, I don't want this car. Number one, or, you know, let me beat him up. Cause he's beating me up. So let's beat each other up, but no, it was not like that. So it was refreshing. Um, he was like, uh, Hey, I've lost customers over $200. It's not worth it. Long story short, very nice experience. Uh, and it was kind of, you know, we just talked about two seconds ago. I feel like we are like that. Whereas some big, uh, you know, dental implant centers are maybe more of the sales, bad car salesman at a good car salesman. So that's always refreshing to have that. But what's nice is you were able to take your time, make the decision that you wanted to make. And I think that that's more than selling, you know, the soft sell and the hard sell and which one's better.

Yeah. That's not the point of really what we're talking about. It's more you had a better, not just from not being pressured or feeling the ick, the car sales, you had the better experience and ended up with a car that you wanted because you were able to make that choice. Yeah. Less pressure. Like you said, I thought I could think about it. I didn't feel like I, again, I was the rush of it's a big purchase, whether it be a car, whether it be this full large procedure. So either way, I've literally heard patients say that they've gone to places that feel like cars, they'll use the term car sales, and I'm like, I totally get it. Their phones are blown up five times a day by these big call centers or texts are blown up. And that's just that for me personally, I don't like to do that. And we always talk about it because that turns me off. I don't, you're pushing me and then I'm going to like run away kind of thing. So, and that's, I think that's what I like about the soft sell. We'll call it the soft sell, the done on one sales technique.

I like that better than the hard sell. Even if someone knows to sit down and say, listen, your numbers are lacking by 25% on the year, because if you implemented hard selling, because I don't want anyone to feel hard sold. I don't want anyone to feel like they got pressured into it. You know, we had a rough November and December and October and yeah, sure. Maybe I said something under the table once or twice with you and Erica around, but it wasn't, I was, there's never any pressure put on you that therefore went to the patient. And that's because that the, even when you get more success from that hard sell, they're not going to love it

Part 310:17

the same way they would if they were making that choice. And for me, that's, it's not like a doing better in the world scenario. It's we're self filtering. Patients that have made their own choice. You know, first of all, they've taken that big leap of exposing themselves and the vulnerability and they've taken that choice. Why are we going to capitalize on that opportunity and make them feel worse and push them against the wall and make them make a choice? It's more of a journey for them. And just by the way that they get through our whole system, if you make it through all the steps with very few exceptions, you're kind of our kind of gang. You know, the mindset of that person is going to be filtered out for a more, a person that we kind of communicate better with, if you will.

A hundred percent. Again, I've, and there's some patients that they just need time and I can, there's patients that we had a patient this week that I think he's been, we've been speaking to him here and there. And, and, you know, of course I follow up with consults and patients and, you know, always going to do that. But every few weeks, I'm like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do months. And if a patient says, Hey, don't talk to me until January 1st, because I don't want, ▶I will not talk to you until January. I am very like, I will not push buttons. I shouldn't be pushing, but this patient three years, he's been waiting, had again, consultation three years ago.

And I feel like if I were to push, push, push, push, push the past three years, he may not be here today. I don't know. You know, I guess, you know, you never know, but. Yeah. It's all, it's also on the experience of the clinician and the team that's there too. There's, I think that potentially you get more. So one of the things that private practices, smaller private practices do more than they think is either they don't inform the patient enough and then slap them with a big bill. And that's like, we'll call it the undersell, the soft sell and the hard sell. They'll either undersell accidentally and leave people on their own to kind of research us and the other big guys.

Or they'll super hard sell because they've got to make, they're not make it because they don't have any real money for the advertising on it, but they really, really want to do that case. It's not their fault, but they really, really want to do that case. And they end up turning a lot of patients towards the bigger centers, you know? Yeah. Very hard line. It's very hard. ▶There's your, it's so right. There's patients like there's offices that literally will won't include the zirconia price and they make you think, and it's just like a kind of like a fake number.

And it's just all over the place from a patient's tell me mostly, but I will randomly start like do a little research and it's crazy. You never know. And we say this all the time in the meetings, like you never know what it is about anything that turns a person off to you. So like sometimes it's could be the color of your logo could be the sound of the name or, you know, just, you never really know. So you kind of want to play middle ground.

Do it all. Yeah. Another example of somebody pushing too hard as we were going to get some new content for a commercial recently. And I think maybe in November we started talking to this person and it requires setting up the appropriate case, the appropriate time, the appropriate everything. And it's a lot of money to film a case. So we've been sort of trying to select and go through things. Also, we just started talking to them. It's not like we're going to do it. It's not like we had them do anything or go on the ground or anything. And I somehow got included on the text messages. And I'm not kidding you. We've gotten, I personally have received maybe 45 text messages in this two months since about when are we going to start? Here's how to pay. Haven't heard from you guys. And it's, they're going to end up on the hard sell. This is an example of like, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm like, it's a little inconsequential to my life. I just want them to go away. Like I'm just going to pay them. But that doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth about this particular filmographer. If you, yeah, film filming crew. So it can go both ways. You know, they're going to get what they want out of it, but it took a lot of effort and I don't love it. And so, you know, it's always been in, in very intimately tied in, in decision selling, you know, soft sell, undersell, hard sell. That is very tied to the ethics conflict, which is, is it appropriate? And so, you know, I've gotten a lot more aggressive as I've gone through, as I've gone through these cases and seen them be successful for a long, long time. But I also very much try to very heavily weight into the person, whether or not I think it's a good idea, but ultimately leave it up to them.

Yeah. And sometimes in that sales pitch, you can kind of get, you can be crossing that line. Yeah. And so it's important for us that that soft sell is that patient's decision. Yeah. And to let them know if they're crossing that line and whether or not we're a good spot

Part 415:51

for them. Yeah. And then that's something that I think that maybe the group that undersells and, and hard sells like the, the smaller private practice, I think they're hanging their head or hang their hat rather on the idea that for sure, if you make your living doing full arch a hundred percent of the time, you are definitely taking advantage of this group that doesn't know any better. And there's, you know, that's lots of private practice, private practice practitioners go to bed with a smile on their face.

Thinking that they're more ethical by not being a full arch center because they're not selling the people and taking advantage of them. Yeah. Well, that's not really what it's about. That's, that's probably one of the biggest lessons I think I learned is I was one of those guys before I really got into full arch, you know, one of the big centers out there would come in, you know, somebody would come in with a treatment plan. And I'd say, well, you know, those, that place, the X, Y, Z, and that would justify in my head ethically why treatment planning them a snap in was better because X, Y, Z, I was making the judgments on their behalf and also judging the big center because how could they possibly be making ethical decisions? They're just, you know, and that's how I rationalized it.

Like how crazy their prices were kind of thing. Um, no more like, uh, like preying on, preying on the individuals like Lilia doesn't need a new car, but I'm going to sell you a new car no matter what and put you in, you know, encumbering debt. Um, and I've really learned in the process of growing this, that the marketing really lines up to that type of patient. Very, very, very, very seldom do we have a patient that doesn't qualify or desperately need this.

Yeah. And I think, it seems like once patients find us, they've already done the research. They've already 80% of the time, they've already gone to the big, big implant centers and already, you know, already some what turned off by them because of X, Y, Z reason. So I feel like most patients stumble upon us when they're doing that research because they need this procedure. So, and that's, what's great about that's, that was like the biggest learning point of starting this up was that I finally kind of, as we started, to get into this, we started to notice, you know, we're don't ever see anybody that even puts us in an ethical bind like ever. Yeah. Um, and that really has to do with that marketing, which is why one of the reasons why like our center in Tampa and Jacksonville, they also offer general dentistry, but they're a separate brand. Yeah. Yeah. We used to have a little bit of the mix when I was in Jacksonville, we would advertise for, general dentistry and full arch. So sometimes those lines could get crossed a little bit, but very rarely are you ever worrying about your ethics of, from that standpoint. But that was what used to really kind of justify in my head. Oh, you know, the big guys, they're just taking advantage of people and preying on people. I feel like those big companies, we actually had a, uh, member of our team that used to work at one of them. And just the things I've heard, unfortunately, kind of lines up with like the neck, you know, patients, whether past patients have gone there and then come to us for whatever reason, or, you know, staff that maybe used to work there, like just patients coming to consults that tell me like, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of it is kind of true. The negative on those big, big centers, which is sad. Cause I want to be like, Oh, that's just, you know, everybody has their own experience, but it seems to kind of be usually the case.

Yeah. Engine to run. Yeah. I guess it's bound to happen. You're, you're going to have people who are not happy with whatever it might be, but a lot of, if we were much bigger, part of the thing that's going to hamper our growth is our belief in sort of making sure that we're not that way. And the bigger you get, the bigger the bills go. And when, uh, when cases dip down, you know, you're owned by a private equity fund or something, you're going to have to put in a lot of money. And so I think that's going to push it and cross some ethical lines. And, you know, doctors maybe necessarily aren't going to be making what they need to make to make their student loan payments. And they started to get a little bit more pushy, but all of that movement kinds of ends up pushing a lot more people away than they think. Yeah. They'll still have some success, but that's why one of the reasons why I'm not, I don't entertain a big, uh, the idea of a large scale because I don't want to ever have to cross those lines. Yeah. I want to get big, as big as we can. But when we start kind of towing those lines, that's where I would like to draw the line. Yeah. I feel like, and I tell all my family and friends and patients, I'm like, we care about our patients so much. Like I don't even know what other office cares, maybe this much about like their happiness from start to finish, which is a great thing. But I, it would be, yeah, I can definitely see it. The bigger, bigger, bigger, you know,

Part 521:27

getting harder to narrow that down, but yeah, there's more things at play. Yeah. Um, I've been pretty picky. I mean, we had a, uh, I had a business partnership go bad with this deal and that really came down to, I started seeing pushes that didn't really take the patient into account. And so we had to find a way to buy that person out and move on. Um, because it wasn't the direction that we wanted to go. Yeah.

The funny thing is that we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this in the holiday season. Currently it is coming up on Christmas and we're in the middle of Hanukkah. So happy holidays to everyone. Uh, we just got done with our Christmas party, but it's kind of funny that it's in this time because of all times in the year, this is where we kind of become a little bit, our pushiest and our most delineated. Most of the time we're pretty, we have some deals set up for if you pay cash versus credit card or this is where we say January 1st is the cutoff. So, you know, we'll usually run a special in January 1st is not the special, whether you talk to us today or tomorrow. Um, even if you pay for the whole thing in full, because it, that, that this part of the year is where it sort of becomes timely. And, um, unfortunately you can't get the Christmas deal. The Christmas deal exists because Christmas is a big ask to get surgery, et cetera. So, it is kind of funny that we're talking about this because it is also where we try to search out where we have the most of the last minute cancellations, the most surgical spots were the most pushy of all the year in December. But even our pushy is not pushy. Yeah. It's, it's more reminder, but like, cause I'm Erica myself, the other girls at the other offices were the ones like reaching out to these patients. I never feel like, Oh, I just, I called this guy five times. It's okay. We never like, there's a, there's, there's a fine line again. And we just, we don't push it, but I do agree. This is the time of the year where, you know, I, I don't feel bad cause it's a great deal. Like it's really good. So I feel like most patients are like, wow, thank you so much for calling me and letting me know about this deal. Yes. I'm interested or no, I have holidays with my family. So I don't, I kind of feel like, like I'm gifting a little gift when I call. It is no, it's, it's fun to be able to try to see what you can get in and offer somebody that maybe didn't, have the total resources to get there, a gift if you will. But it definitely is our period of time where we call the most, we're the most pushy. And then also the most unrelenting in terms of delineation between, between the dates have to be, I mean, again, it's, we do run random specials and stuff, but this is a patient's will ask me like, Oh, is it? I'm like, this is the time.

This month is when it's the best it's going to ever be for the year. So, um, patients will wait,

Part 624:28

patients really appreciate the special you're on. Yeah. Lots of people do wait, wait for it. And I'm always, I'm actually shocked at how close there's the, there's the random, um, you know, let's say a person that's a Jewish, like there'll be done with Hanukkah and there's a random person that doesn't care about Christmas and they can do that. Then the holidays can, you can kind of see that sway back and forth. Um, but it is always shocking to me.

When there is one, there is say a person that wants it Christmas week or around Christmas week or Thanksgiving, whatever the holiday is. Um, and it's also kind of fun to see the trends because some, some years you get skunked like this year, we had nothing for Thanksgiving, but some years you're slammed all the way into Thanksgiving or on Thanksgiving week. It's just a little bit of a luck of the draw. Yeah. I can totally see like your schedule. If you have off for two weeks, you know, and this is like your time to do, Hey, you know, get this done while you can, you know, you're already on again, two weeks from work. A lot of patients want, if they do do it, it's because they have that time off and then it works out perfectly for them. So, um, yeah, I think again, pushy, but not pushy.

Yeah. It's a gentle push because you also want them to help themselves. Yeah. The, we were just discussing this in the office the other day, how, uh, randomly and weirdly Thanksgiving is very consistently the absolute worst holiday because it's such a catch all and Christmas is less of a delineator because some, you know, depending on if Jewish, not Jewish, et cetera, like what holiday you spend, they're at least spread out usually enough that we actually have some pretty consistent volume through the middle of the big holidays, you know, the big holiday time, Christmas time.

But Thanksgiving's definitely, I would say Thanksgiving is number one least or tough, most difficult to find a patient. Uh, and I would say number two might be 4th of July. Yeah. I feel like Thanksgiving, we think they think of eating. It's a big thing that, you know, it's all, I mean, Christmas, yes. You know, those other holidays. Yes. But something about Thanksgiving, I feel like everyone just thinks about the food. Uh, I feel like 4th of July is hard for some reason. I feel like something about Thanksgiving is hard for some reason.

▶Sometimes New Year's people, I mean, we'll close New Year's day, but New Year's Eve people are out at night. I don't know. It's, you never really know. Cause some years I'm so surprised. Yeah. Year by year it changes like crazy. I feel like we say this with every holiday and then we're like, wow, we're busy. Like we, it just happens. I'm going to look at the schedule when I get back to the office, we'll be booked for it. You know, so.

The numbers are also kind of skewed. What was it like three years ago? I think we did probably 50% more volume in December. It was crazy. It was crazy.

Part 727:30

Um, in the best way, in the best way, in the middle of, between Christmas and New Year's during Christmas week, that one was wild. I have to say we definitely had Christmas week. We had to have with how busy we were. We were just, we had something everywhere. That was wild. But you know, it varies. Yeah. The key is to the, the, the take home is to focus on the patient and that's, you know, to focus on the patient, treat them like family.

Yeah. You know, as we're into the holidays, um, that's certainly something that we talked about and pushed with Christmas. Um, you know, with the Christmas party that we had last week was the mode, the, the, the mission of us as a DSO, as a, as a group effort is to offer everyone a good paying job that they can feel good about. ▶And that we are trying to prove that you can, everyone can go home and sleep well about their decisions and the patients can feel good about the service they received. And we don't have to be too extreme on either end.

Yeah. I feel like in every console you talked about like the money thing and how it's maybe at first it's like a, I remember when I first started, I was like, how am I going to say this number to this, these patients? And it is, we are very, you know, compared to other offices, we're a really fair number, I think. So I remember the first time, doing it. And I was like, you know what, just talk to them, like their family, you know, talk to them, like you want to be spoken to. And that's really what all of us do. And when I train other treatment coordinators, I'm like, you have to just understand they're human. You know, it's no matter what, it's a lot of money. We have to understand it's a big investment. It's a surgery.

So it's scary for patients. So I feel like we all come from a very, uh, understanding and nice and gentle approach because again, it's, it's a big thing. So it's nice to see it with all, all four offices that, that, yeah, especially at the Christmas party to see them all there. That's amazing. Yeah. Um, I think most, the average done in one worker comes from a very grounded background. So there's an understanding that's behind that crazy feeling of presenting that number. Absolutely. You almost need that because the, you know, easy to get a little bit riled up with difficult patients. Also don't let it fool you. Lilia only took about two weeks to get over that fear. Oh yeah. Honestly, I won't lie. It was, because I know, uh, I, I figured out really quickly, you have to come from a genuine approach and I'm very genuine. And again, I'm very under, all of us are all the treatment coordinators, but, um, you got over it pretty quickly. I also, I will say patients do a lot of research. So it kind of helped when they, by the time they came to see us, we're this nice office, we're laid back, we're not pushy and we're half the price of the competitor. Like, you know, which I get asked a lot.

I think I, I know, I know everything now behind, behind the scenes, but a lot of patients would always sometimes be like confused and kind of like skeptical. Like, why are you half the price of the competitor? So I think, uh, all of us being so well, you know, first knowledge of done in one and why you have the prices you have and why we're fair. It's easier now, but there was a moment where patients were like a little skeptical. Sometimes there was also a moment in time where it was a lot. It was significantly more.

▶Expensive at the other locations and external pressure and the economy has caused them to come down more towards our area. They really, that's two years. Big competitors have dropped. Yeah.

Part 831:12

Which that should be a sign to people. That should be a sign. And I don't know, it just freaks me out that sometimes, and then, you know, everyone has their decision of why they go places. But again, we care so much that we were going to make things right. I feel like kind of no matter what, usually that's. Our whole motto, but I've heard that those offices like just don't care. And it makes me kind of sad. Like I, you know, I pray that everyone that goes there has good experiences from start to finish, but if they don't, we can help them. Come find us. Well, thanks for talking Lilia. I, um, definitely appreciate your expertise. Lilia is not only just, I don't know if we've mentioned this before on a podcast, but Lilia is not just our treatment coordinator. She's more of our, more or less our.

Head treatment coordinator for all locations. So she's, um, intimately involved with training the new onboard hires, the new offices, boots on the ground. She's, um, been to Tampa several times, but Jacksonville more. Um, and it looks like we've got a little bit more time with, with Jacksonville. Uh, and so, uh, it's always a lot of fun. So. And I like that. I like to know that everybody we're all uniform in our beliefs and how we treat patients. It's that's my number one thing is.

▶Again, being, you know, caring towards all of our patients. So if you want to be a treatment coordinator at Dunham one, you got to get Lilia on board. You have to give me any good stuff. But, um, thanks for coming in and, uh, talking about, um, you know, how we, how we approach our sales with patients and how we approach them as human, not just the number and how you, how you bring those two things together, because it can be difficult for some people. So thanks for tuning in.

And, uh, we'll see you next time.